It's an Inside Job

The Survival Mindset: Why Your Old Coping Mechanisms Are Making You Sick with Kristin Grayce McGary

• Jason Birkevold Liem • Season 9 • Episode 4

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"When we operate from a 'fight' mentality, we are keeping our nervous system in a state of high alert. True healing begins when we move from combat to curiosity." - Kristin Grayce McGary

Discover how to break free from unconscious childhood patterns and transition from a "fight" mentality to a healing mindset with holistic health expert Kristin Grayce McGary. Learn how integrating emotional awareness with functional medicine can build lasting resilience and transform your physical well-being.

Are the survival strategies you developed as a child actually sabotaging your health and happiness today?

Key Takeaway Insights and Tools

  • The "Whole Person" Diagnostic Approach: Health is not merely the absence of symptoms but the alignment of biochemistry and emotional history. By observing body language and micro-expressions, we can uncover hidden blocks that lab tests might miss. [00:12:30]
  • Deconstructing Childhood Survival Patterns: Many adult habits in relationships and work are actually outdated "safety" mechanisms formed in childhood. Bringing these into conscious awareness allows you to choose which patterns to keep and which to discard. [00:22:15]
  • The Biology of "Fighting" vs. Nurturing: Using combative language (like "fighting" a disease) can create a biologically detrimental stress response. Shifting the focus toward moving toward health rather than resisting illnesscreates an internal environment more conducive to recovery. [00:35:45]
  • Tool: The "Pause and Assess" Strategy: A practical method for building resilience by stopping to evaluate whether your current motivations are driven by past trauma or present-day values. [00:48:20]

Bio

Kristin Grayce McGary (LAc., MAc., CFMP®, CST-T, CLP) is an internationally recognised health and lifestyle author, and speaker. She weaves together 29 years of experience, education, wisdom, and compassion to empower you to reconnect, reawaken, and rejuvenate on all levels

She is an authority on autoimmunity, functional blood chemistry analysis, thyroid and gut health, family healthcare, food as medicine, biohacking techniques, integrating mind/body/spirit in health & soulcare, Authentic Relating practices, and is initiated into several lineages of shamanic practices.

She is the author of Holistic Keto for Gut Health: A Program for Resetting your Metabolism and Know Your Blood, Know Your Health; Prevent Disease and Enjoy Vibrant Health Through Functional Blood Chemistry Analysis. Her upcoming book is on Blocks to Healing and how to resolve them quickly.

Website:  https://kristingraycemcgary.com/

Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/kristingraycemcgary
Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/inspiredpositivehealth
Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/kristingraycemcgary/

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Content Warning

This episode contains discussions regarding chronic illness,

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This is It's an Inside Job, and I'm your host, Jason Lim. This is the show where we explore the stories, strategies, and science behind growing resilience, nurturing well-being, and leading with intent. Because when it comes down to it, it's all an inside job. Welcome back to the show. Now, most of us have spent years getting really good at the grind. We've learned how to white-knuckle our way through stress and treat our bodies like machines that just need the right fuel to keep running. But there's a point where grit stops being an asset and starts being a liability. Where the very things you do to survive are actually what's burning you out from the inside. Now, I want you to think about the last time you hit the wall. You burnt out. Was your first instinct to push harder? And did that actually solve the problem or did it just leave you more exhausted? Well, today I'm talking with Christine Grace McGarry. She's an acupuncturist, a functional medicine practitioner, but she doesn't just look at blood work or needles. She looks at the hidden architecture of why we do what we do. Now, she spent her career connecting the dots between physical ailments like autoimmune issues and the emotional patterns we picked up when we were too young to know any better. So in this conversation, we're going to get into how to spot the specific survival habits you formed in childhood that may be currently sabotaging your health. We're also going to explore why your nervousism might be stuck in a fight mode even when things are going well. And also a better way to measure your daily energy that has nothing to do with a calendar or to-do list. And close to the very end of our chat, Christine Gray shares a perspective on facing big fears. The kind that feel like a battle, that completely flips the script on how we've been taught to handle adversity. So without further ado, let's slip into the story. Having me, Jason. What I'd like to do with most of my, all my guests, actually, I'd like to just kick off by you introducing yourself and what you do. So my name is Kristen Grace McGarry. I go by Kristen Grace and I'm a health and lifestyle alchemist. I'm also a credentialed healthcare provider. I'm an acupuncturist and certified in functional healthcare, as well as advanced cranial sacral therapy, somatoemotional release, neural and perineural injection therapies and i'm an herbalist i'm a homeopath and what i do is i i also work with the mind i believe in very comprehensive care and that means working with our inner world as well as our biochemistry how we think how we feel the lenses through which we see the world how we dance in the relational space how we show up at work and as a parent with our children. And so I also bridge the world of the biochemical, physical, and the emotional and spiritual. Thank you for that. And that's what I want to kind of explore with you today, sort of the inner work, the inner environment in us. I'm curious, just from my own personal, what brought you to working with sort of this inner work, the sort of the mental landscape per se? I'm very grateful to have a loving family who is highly dysfunctional. And that helped me begin my own journey because what was happening in the relational space of my family of origin was disruptive and highly impactful to how I was dancing in the world. And through the lenses, I was seeing the world and people and friends and myself. And I somehow was wise enough to. Continue a journey of therapy and meditation, introspective work, self-inquiry. And I also had many physical challenges. I had biochemical imbalances. My body was screaming to me through a language of symptoms that there were things in my unconscious that needed to be looked at. And that's what started me on this journey. And let's talk about more about the inner work. I was just curious what brought you to this space, because there's many entrances into helping someone, you know, figure out the patterns and such. What would you say your approach is and how effective it is? My approach has, it's evolving, depending on myself and with whom I'm working. It's not static. It unfolds in real time, moment to moment, in a kind of pure presence and awareness. And it weaves in multiple modalities that I've been studying for the last 30 plus years. And it's highly effective. And it's highly effective because it's not static. And it's not just one given protocol. That there's a way in which I've learned and I train others to listen beyond just the words. To what the heart is speaking and listen for the clues that something is hooked as a pattern or a program or stuck in the unconscious that hasn't been observed, that hasn't been brought into conscious awareness. When you said when you listen beyond the words, I found that quite compelling, actually. What do you mean that? Could you elaborate? Yes. Yes. So because I'm trained in so many different modalities, I... Can see someone's face and their micro expressions, and it gives me information. The structure of their body, how they hold themselves. Are they slumped over? Are they standing up? Are their arms too far behind them? Are they too far in front of them? Are their feet together? Are their feet splayed out? This gives me information about more than just their physiology. The cadence of their voice, the word choices they use. Are they using language that I may identify as victim language? Are they using language of self-sabotage or self-deprecation? Are they using language that is the blame game? This gives me more clues. Assessing their biochemistry their physiology gives me clues assessing their relationships what's going on in your marriage with your best friend what pisses you off the most what brings you the most joy this gives me information on their programming that may or may not be conscious yet, and so part of this so if if i was uh perhaps a client or a patient whatever vernacular use and i come and sit down with christine grace and i need help on my inner work so the first conversation is what is that you asking me about my story or do i start just somewhere on the circle how does how does sort of the the work begin, It depends on the person and what they're looking for. People come to me with all sorts of symptoms in their life, in their body. And so it would depend on what you're coming to me for. If you say, well, I just want to level up. I just want to look at, see if I have any blocks. Well, first of all, I'd ask you, what are you most passionate about in your life? And are you involved in that passion and how? And and then i may ask you well what's the most difficult most challenging thing in your life in your body in your relationships in your job and and hear more of that story and then i'd want to hear what brings you joy not just what your passions are but what are your hobbies what brings you joy are you exploring those as well and i would ask how's your physical body and the basics Are you drinking water? What are you eating? When do you go to sleep? Are you exercising? Are you doing practices to train your mind to build capacity to explore the unconscious and really look at patterns? And this is giving me information around what, what I may coach you on. When I look at you, Jason, I can tell you're very intelligent. Just by your facial structure. No, and I mean, it's not just to give you a compliment. It's true. When I see you, I look at your face and I know you have a decent memory and I know you're very intelligent. So that helps me have a different kind of conversation with you. I know this sounds funny, but the cheek area in my world, in one of the modalities I've studied, is related to the heart. And when you smile, I can see your cheeks. So I also know that there's a part of you that's deeply connected to your heart and that you can come from a heart-centered space. And then I check in. So I may say some of these things or share them in a different way with a patient, a client. And then I check in and ask, you know, how did that land? Does that feel accurate? How does that land, Jason? Does that feel true? It resonates with me. It chimes with me what you're saying. So in an initial conversation, you would, depending on what the person wants, you'd sit down, ask them, you know, what their passions are, what troubles them the most. But through their articulation, through their description of what's going on, you're looking at intonation, you're looking at cadence, you're looking at body language. And this gives you kind of an overall picture. And so I guess over a conversation or two, because of your in-depth knowledge and experience working in this domain, do you start to sort of see, as you call it, unconscious patterns play out in the way they communicate, both directly and indirectly? Yes, exactly. And this begins to lay the foundation or the path forward for me as a practitioner to then help guide them. So depending on what I'm seeing as their sticky points, or where they may be blocked in moving forward in their life and really leveling up, then I can start to gauge and co-create a path forward. Yeah. And this can include different practices, different lifestyle changes. If I'm noticing someone has maybe low-level depression or they're having anxiety, I may recommend exercising in the morning to help balance cortisol. That's just one tiny step. And then I need to know that they're hydrated and they're front-loading their protein in the morning. This is going to help their brain work so that they're going to be able to handle the other practices I give them. Yeah, so it's fuel per se and when to fuel during the day, which can help individuals depending upon their particular challenges. Yes. Yes. And then I would start to build on practices and let me hear if you're going there next and I'll continue. So when you notice these sort of unconscious patterns, is this something you make the client aware of? He's saying, well, Jason or Jane, this is what I see or this is what based on what you're saying. Is this how it unfolds to the person, especially if the person is not cognizant or she's not cognizant of it? It depends it depends on the person and if so some people really appreciate a very direct approach and i assess that and other people would crumble and start sobbing and we may not get very far not that crying doesn't happen so i'm really gauging that person's capacity and resiliency their emotional maturity and how they have evolved to assess how to enter their ecosystem in a loving kind way that will have a high impact so sometimes it's direct laser coaching and sometimes it's softer and i guide people there through inquiry so tell me about your relationship to your mother and people start crying. And, and then we, then, then the door has opened or tell me what's going on with your wife and how does that mirror what happened in your childhood? And someone's, you may, may pause and say, well, how did you know that? How did you pick up on that? You know? So it could be something like that, or Hey, what's going on with your shoulder? Do you have, do you have pain in your shoulder? How did you know? So it depends on the person and. And what their level of capacity and resiliency is to receive direct input like that. So sometimes I'll ask, I practice a lot of authentic relating and I like to teach my people authentic relating practices, whether it's nonviolent communication tools or Byron Katie's The Work or the Sedona Method or T-Group or Circling, where there's a level of inquiry that is direct and loving and we check in about impact. So I may ask someone, I'm seeing a pattern in your system and I'm listening to your language. Would it be okay if I point that out? Some people are like, oh yes. And then if it's edgy, I may say this may feel edgy for you. So let me know, let me know how it lands and the impact. So then people are, they can kind of prepare themselves for something that could feel intense. Like I can often tell if a woman has been sexually abused or if a man has been sexually abused through their language and language. Patterns and habits that they share with me through some life information. And I'm very mindful to be tender and kind if I bring that up. Because some people may or may not remember or want to go there. And so sometimes I'll just ask questions to lead people there themselves. And then they can just tell me without me being so direct. It just depends. I think self-awareness is, at least for me, a first step into understanding and discovering unconscious patterns. Because just for those listeners who may not specifically know what we're talking about, patterns per se, these are thoughts, these are beliefs, these are emotions. They can get, as I understand it, get locked up in our nervous system and in the fascia. But these patterns that any of our brains develop, they, again, this is from my trauma days when I was working in that field, is that our bodies develop patterns, our minds develop patterns to protect us. But sometimes we forget those patterns are there. We move on. The world moves on. But those patterns are still playing 24-7 in the back of our heads. And we sometimes ask ourselves, as you said, victimization. Why do I self-sabotage? Why am I so overly critical with myself? I was wondering, could you speak a little on your experiences with old patterns that once served us, but now to some level serve against us? Yes, I'd love to. Thank you. This is really key. I also call patterns habits. And sometimes this is more relatable for people who haven't explored old patterns and they're unconscious. Like you said, these things are running. It can be like an audio tape that's running in the back of your head, but the volume's down. So you don't consciously hear it, but it's running and it actually influences your life in ways you may not have realized. It influences your language. It influences where you choose to go get your coffee. It influences who you date. It influences how you raise your children. It influences if you exercise or not and how you do your self-care or feed yourself. So these habits, some of them are easy to identify. I get up, I have coffee every morning, and then I eat breakfast and I go to the bathroom and then I get ready for work and I take a shower and I take a shower in this way and my soap is always here and my shampoo is always there. And in my closet, my socks are always here. These are we've developed these habits so that we can function more optimally. If every day someone moved my socks to a different place, it would take me longer to get ready and out the door. So some of these habits we create actually have helped us over time function more optimally, even emotionally. However, we often created those habits when we were younger and less emotionally mature. When our brains weren't fully developed yet. They say in science that the male brain is not the frontal lobe isn't fully developed until at least age 27. This is logical, rational decision making part of our brain. So if we're making decisions when we're five, because our parents were screaming at each other or throwing things or we were being beaten with the belt and we want to be safe and our caregivers are not creating safety in a way that may have been optimal for a little brain and nervous system to develop. We will then survive by creating patterns or habits, ways of being, so we feel safe in the world and do our best to get basic needs met. And if those basic needs are not being met well by our caregivers. We will stack patterns, habit upon habit, as we develop to manage it so that we survive. And now we're grown adults and all of those habits have been stacked so neatly, we don't even realize they're there. And we think a certain way. We see the world a certain way. We date a certain way we raise our kids a certain way we eat a certain way based on these old old habits patterns that we stacked up when we were little now we didn't always just make them up on our own those caregivers showed us how they taught us verbally and through their actions and those our brains were little sponges our nervous systems were little sponges our bodies were little sponges and we learned quickly because we wanted to survive so we have these beautifully constructed habits of the mind of the body and of our emotional mind and these inform our adult life and they're not always optimal for adults who want to function optimally and in a fun way and in an expansive way and who want to succeed and thrive. So there are ways to... Shine a light on these constructed habits and patterns of the mind and body and spirit and emotions and begin to dismantle the old stack of habits and patterns and rebuild healthier adult ones. And this is something I help people with. I'd like to get into that. I just have a question because I think you made such an astute point where we're talking about habits and patterns and And we can, any of us, label that this is a good habit or a bad habit, but it's not always that simple. How can someone discern which patterns or habits serve us in our life versus those that are maybe quietly slowing us down and even causing harm? It takes some introspective work. It takes a pause. I teach people how to pause, at least in North America and Central America. Central America is slightly different. I'll speak to North America. I live in Central America and North America. You can go back and forth. And in North America, there is an attitude of go, go, go. And in some places in the UK, London is not a slow paced city. There is some go, go, go. And I've lived in Paris, and it's not necessarily a slow paced city on the subway, right? There's an element of must go, must do. And so first, we need to pause so that we can take a look. We cannot take a look while we're driving and having a snack at the same time or while the kids are screaming in the back of the car and we're dropping them off at school five minutes late so we can get to our next appointment. That's not the time to pause and look inside. We don't have that time. And so I like to teach people to build the capacity to pause so that they can look inside. So it then requires several questions. Is this working for my life and is it giving me life? So some people enjoy, many people enjoy celebrations. And where I come from, people celebrate birthdays with ice cream and cake and alcohol and candy. And this is actually not life-giving. So we're celebrating a birthday with foods and alcohol that are actually poisons to us. And we don't normally think about it that way, but they are. They are massively inflammatory. They cause gut problems and they slow our mind down. They spike our blood sugar. It's just there's nothing good about it. So could we recreate that? Of course, we can now have healthier raw desserts. I have them all over my website. I teach it. we can create connection in a healthier way, which is why we really want to celebrate. It's because we're connecting and we're celebrating being here together. And so when we pause, we can start to assess what are our connections like in the world? And are there any things that we don't like going on in our world? And what does that feel like? And we can begin then to discern addiction. Because sometimes we say, well, I really like my wine. But what does your body say? Does your biochemistry, your physiology, and your brain really like your wine? Or is it the habit that you're feeding that tells you, well, this is my relaxing time. This is my built-in pause. I have my glass of wine. That's great. And maybe that's good in the moment for this part of your brain that likes it. But is it really in alignment with moving forward and thriving biochemically? It's absolutely not. There's a ton of information that even one glass of wine or one glass of alcohol damages your brain. So if you're someone like me, who is a go-getter and really wants to excel in my life, in my body, who's into longevity and health and having a sharp mind as I age, alcohol is not going to be on my menu. So there are ways in which we can pause and then start to look at, is that behavior life-giving? Is this relationship balanced and life-giving or am I the one always giving? What I get back, does it feel life-giving to me or does it feel stressful? Like there's a guilt trip, like there's obligation with my children. Does it feel like I have support in raising them or am I doing it all on my own? If I'm at work in business, depending on my role in that business, does this feel like it's for me, it's important to give back to the world and do something bigger than just me, which is why we're here, Jason, which is why I I want to speak to you here is because we have the shared value. We want to give back in a bigger way. So when I'm at work, I'm I'm looking at who I'm working with and what companies and what people and are we giving back in a bigger way? Or is it a kind of corporation that's only taking and hurting the earth? I look at those things. And I assess what's in my highest good and what's in the highest good of those around me and what's in the highest good for humanity and the planet. So I start to look at what is life-giving and what feels life-draining. So as a listener, you may start to consider your energy as a bank account. Or you're being as a bank account and energy is a currency. That's better said. Energy is a currency. And look at your interactions with people and places. And what's the energetic exchange? And is your bank account depleted of energy? Or is your bank account thriving with energy, with lots of storage of energy and savings of energy in your bank account, in your safe deposit box. I like that idea of, you know, discernment between what's draining us and what's giving us energy per se, or the currency of energy. And I think what you said is very important. It's to use maybe daily life as a mirror to stop up and reflect, not in the crazy busyness of things, but to catch ourselves in the here and now, as you said, to pause and to bear witness or to observe how we're interacting. You know, a common, a common. Challenge that many of us can face especially as we maybe come into the corporate game if we are working in an organization is that you're sitting in a room you're sitting in the meeting room and you may be just promoted to a certain level you've been invited to the table not out of charity but because you've earned your right at that table but when when it comes to talking they they tell themselves i'm a listener i want to observe everything and that's very true. But they never say anything in that meeting. They're just quiet. And it may be a little bit of the imposter syndrome playing in. But in that case, what you're saying to me, I mean, this is a very mundane example, but that person, that man or a woman can sit there, pause during a meeting in the here and now, see how they're interacting. Is it actually true that they are observing and listening? Yeah. But at what level are you actually draining yourself by not speaking up because you feel that if i say something people are going to see my incompetency or my lack of knowledge or i can't make a mistake or i have to score early wins whatever that is and what i hear you're saying is to understand the pattern is to maybe what's the narrative running through my head right now what am i feeling like what's my emotions is it approach or avoidance and what is my behavior am i sort of as you were talking about earlier in the conversation as my shoulders am I hunched over am I not taking too much space so emotionally I'm invisible in the room and you know whatever it is but I think that's very important what you're saying between draining and giving energy per se how am I acting being self-aware. Yes, excellent. You bring up really good, solid points. This is so important to have that pause and maybe in that big meeting, discern what's going on in me and why am I not saying something? Is it actually appropriate that I not say anything because I'm new to this position and I really just need to learn and listen? Or is something in me holding me back out of fear? So using our emotions to gauge where we are and to then learn how to regulate it. Oh, okay, I'm really afraid of making a big mistake here. I don't want to lose this position. I'm just going to shut my mouth. So then what I'm doing on my own is I might be strategizing and writing out what was coming up for me in that meeting, articulating it in a way that feels really good, and then bringing it to my superior, whoever else I'm working with or my team and saying, hey, these things came up for me and I just want to lay it on the table and see, you know, but I might take extra time if I'm not feeling confident, but I would still move forward with it. I would still make sure that I got it out there because that what you share in that moment with your team could really shift something for that company. We don't know unless we get it out there. And I know not all corporate bosses are like this. But in my world, if you're not making a mistake, you're not growing. So maybe you don't want to make a lot of mistakes at work, especially big ones and expensive ones. And if you're not making an effort in trying, you're not going to grow and you're not going to make more money. The people who make a lot of money made a lot of mistakes. And that's how they learned. The people who are extremely successful have made a lot of mistakes. They never walk onto that stage and say, no, I was always perfect. Never. And so I think it's important to embrace our mistakes. Where I think there is a gap in people's understanding is how we repair those mistakes. And that's often takes us now into a relational space and also how we repair them within ourselves, because there is a lot of people who will beat themselves up for stuff and shame and guilt, especially in corporate internally. Right. And then we're turning to alcohol and we're turning to soothe and we're turning to late nights and we're not having good self-care. So it opens up the conversation how to repair for mistakes how do we deal with mistakes because we're going to make them and this is an important part of our evolution so this is also jason where the self-awareness comes in it's brilliant watch how we respond to not doing it well, how do we respond to someone pointing out that we were wrong and do we get defensive Do we shrink into a five-year-old or a teenager and rebel, right? To observe what's our response to conflict? What's our response to making a mistake? And we can start to track that and bring it into our awareness and have compassion. And we can even trace the threads to our family of origin if we desire. Oh, yeah, that's what my mom would always do. Oh, that's how my dad dealt with things. I learned this. And when we do that, I think it's fun because –. It separates me from the habit, from the pattern in a way. The Kristen Grace over here learned this thing back here. It's not actually who I am. And I think creating that space between the behavior or the belief, the pattern, the habit, and the who I've identified as is very important for our evolution as we grow. Yeah, because the behavior is very situational. It's like, it's like, you know, when you're parenting kids and I was always cognizant of this with my three kids, you know, it was never, I would say maybe, you know, you acted inappropriately. I wouldn't say you are, you know, this or you are that. So we'd label the behaviors because we'd have to address it. Right. But it wasn't a label. It's just, okay, in this situation, you behave like this. It was not optimal. It wasn't appropriate. It wasn't permissible, but it wasn't a label right so they don't walk around with that because i i think it's such a salient point you make if we're constantly hearing someone saying you are this you are this you are this even though we think we're bulletproof you keep throwing that at someone that becomes a label like i was talking to um a veteran in california uh a couple of days ago for the podcast. And you know they've moved from calling it post-traumatic stress disorder just to post-traumatic distress so they don't see themselves as broken but what it is it's a normal reaction to an abnormal horrific situation and it's not a disorder per se and i completely concur with what this veteran said but it's stress it's a normal reaction to the nervousness and body to the horse that they have seen or have experienced or have committed and they that's how the brain or the nervous system is trying to deal with it, right? It's trying to, how do we adapt? Exactly. Exactly. It's the survival mechanism. And in this case, it's happening to grown adults. And in other people's cases, it happened. They had horrific things happening in their childhood. You know, I know several patients who are just sensitive beings and their childhood wasn't horrible. They weren't raped. They weren't beaten with a belt. They weren't, you know, they they were, you know, possibly middle class or upper class. They didn't have this horrific, violent, quote unquote, violent childhood. But their parents yelled. Their parents yelled and fought about money. And that conditioned them in such a way, their little brain got conditioned that they're just, they're very, very afraid of conflict. They are terrified of yelling because their nervous system got wired for their entire childhood. And so I also want to bring up, I've worked with people, and this may be important for some of your listeners, that there could have been horrors like this veteran. Thank you for your service and for what you endured to try to bring peace to other countries and possibly my country. And my son was in the military. I get it to a certain extent, being the mom of someone that was in the military and what I held in my heart. And there are people that don't have that level of trauma and still carry immense stress in their systems. Oh, for sure. For sure. Right. And then we can also bring in an emotional stress component. But there's more stressors now in our world than there was 100 years ago. And I can bring up all the toxins in our foods now. You guys have less pesticides and chemicals than we do, but we have a ton. We can talk about the electromagnetic fields that we are putting in place around the planet and how that is interfering with the natural electromagnetic field of the earth. And this is measured by science. This isn't even woo-woo at all. This is measurable and how that is impacting the human nervous system. We could talk about new construction and the level of toxicity that's in the paint of your walls, the flame retardants in your bedding, the sealant on your floor, highly toxic chemicals that are in our everyday life. The bleach as you're traveling that's used to clean the airport. We are being bombarded with toxins in our water, our air, our food. There's more, but just that alone is a huge stress to a human body. And now we're put in a situation where we're driving all the time. We're navigating driving and our feet aren't on the earth very much. And we're not around plants very much. And we're not around clean air. And we're in these buildings with interesting fake lighting, not natural lighting. And this can be a huge burden and stress on the nervous system. And we don't think about these little things, but they compile and they build on themselves. And pretty sure we're pretty soon we're carrying what I call a body burden. And we're toxed out, we're maxed out, we're stressed out, our blood sugars are out of balance, we might have addictions that we're engaging in, and we're kind of a hot mess, but we may be high-functioning and, in society, successful. But are we happy? Are we really thriving, or are we just managing to keep it all together? I think a lot of people probably feel like that. They're just, you know, they're just, they're hanging by a tether. You know, they're just, they're, they're holding it together. But if we could circle back to the patterns and habits, I think that was very, um, very, uh, engaging and compelling for me to just explore further with you. So you have a different number of modalities, but my question was, so once we've identified these blocks or these limitations or these, these habits or these longstanding patterns, um, You were talking in our pre-interview about when someone is, you know, they may have said, you know, I've tried everything and nothing is changing. What techniques do you find helpful to try to take, to unpack these stack of habits or patterns you were talking about from your experience? Yes. Thanks for asking, Jason. It's twofold. So one is if someone comes to me and they say, I have tried everything and nothing works, instantly in my mind, in my heart, I know there's a block. And I have a third book coming out, hopefully next year on blocks and what really blocks us from thriving, what blocks us physically and mentally and emotionally and spiritually and energetically from thriving. So I'm looking for a block. I'm looking for something in their body, their mind, their spirit, that's really holding them back that's like a hook it's like i'm holding you back so i look at those and depending on what it is and where it is i address it directly one way in a in a more general second part of of the answer is around self-inquiry and teaching people how to ask the right questions and when, and so i would jason we can we can play with this if you want to give let's let's do that i think I think that's very good. You know, the self-inquiry. Great. Because not many people pause to actually ask themselves this. So, Jason, if you were to pick something very stressful. In your life. And if you don't mind sharing or make something up, we can just play with it. Or it could be something from one of your previous interviews, if someone had a stress. Let me know what that is. Tell me something that's really has high emotion, a trigger, where you're like angry or sad or upset or want to change it. What's something like that? Well, I guess for the last two and a half years, I've been battling cancer. And, you know, you have to go to chemo the doctors say i can go off chemo and immunotherapy so that that kind of you know that kind of derails me sometimes but you know then i go but i mean i i still i can still do everything i did before but it's just having that sword just dangling over my head at some point it may drop right and so that's something to kind of deal with so that that brings me that brings me a I guess a level of stress I mean I'm at peace with it to some extent but of course I'm human and the reaper is just hanging just in the background just slightly over there with a sickle it's it's a reality check yeah yeah and I'm wondering if that also motivates you in a way like you really get how precious life is. Yeah. What motivates me is to stick around for my kids and my wife as long as I can to help them. As a father figure, as a husband, we're a very tight family, the five of us. And so, you know, my kids are 21 and twins are 18. So we're all adults. That's the reason I keep fighting on. So may I ask a probing question to get us there? Yeah, yeah, sure. we'll see if this is appropriate topic i'm not sure that this is the right topic we'll see because you seem at peace but are you afraid of death are you afraid of dying yeah i guess yeah yeah i'm not ready to take you know the next uh off-world transport yet so i'm 56 i was hoping to kick around to at least 80 but we'll see but yeah there is a level of um i guess existential angst. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I'd like you to connect to just the raw fear. So see, I'm going to find the emotion, just the raw fear without the content necessarily of death. Just want you to connect to the raw fear and see if you can feel it. Where do you feel it in your body? Like, I like to ask people to turn it up like a radio dial, like an old radio dial. Turn it up and where do you feel the fear in your body just raw fear i guess the is the center of the chest the center of your chest good and just connecting to that raw fear as you amplify it do your best to go back in your life to the first time you remember feeling fear and how old were you. And just let it come. You don't have to even find an incident. Just allow an age to pop into your head of possibly the first time you felt real fear. Just let it come. You don't have to have an incident or a situation. Yeah what age i guess maybe it was the first time uh maybe in um public school where yeah your first school fight i guess you know because first night yeah yeah i think so you know in the playground yeah so it could be a situation where that came to you and what age were you about you know six yeah i think it was about eight eight eight seven eight so let's go with eight. Good. So go with eight. And I'd like you to, and there's no mistake here. I'm just going to point out what's going on in my head. So your listeners can, can hear there's a, it may be different where you are, but in North America, there's a fight against cancer, a fight against cancer. And when I bring up fear that you talked about cancer, and now you're bringing up a fight that was also fearful where you felt fear in a different way when you were younger. So we're going to go back there. And it's just interesting. You've made that connection here and I'm just seeing it. I'm witnessing it. So let's go to when you were eight. Can you picture yourself when you were eight? Uh, yeah, I guess. Yes. Visually. Yeah. Yeah. So I want you to be with him and watch him, be with him, watch him. So the first question that we're answering right now, as you get to learn this particular process is who's here now. So when there's fear in someone, I like to know who's here now. What part of you is showing up to the conversation? And the way I discern that is through what we just did. Who's here now? Well, one of the parts of you here now is an eight-year-young part of you who is afraid on the playground, who was maybe getting into your first fight. So that actually is a hook around fear that you continue to hold today. And there's a way at unraveling that that collapses the fear completely. Because what would life be like, Jason, if you lived every moment to the fullest, but you were fearless in every way? Would that be different? It would. But I remember, I actually remember the school fight. It was a kid much bigger than me. And he pushed me. And I remember it was in Toronto, it was ice and it was wet and I fell. And I remember it was like springing and I fell in ice. Not ice, but it was like melting, melting snow. And I got wet and I slipped off my backpack. I closed my eyes and I just swung blindly like with a right hook. Just blindly, must have clocked him right on the chin. and knocked them to the ground. And from there, the fear transformed in a sense of confidence for me. Yes. And that was something that fueled me. So yes, I do fight the cancer. But for me. It is to fight the cancer because that's what I'm doing. The fight gives me a sense of fortitude, a sense of tenacity, a sense of resilience, a sense of moving forward. So, yes, there is the fear of death. I think most of us do, you know, but the cancer itself for me is a fight and it always will be a fight because if I don't fight, that means I give into it and I'm not willing to give into it. I'm willing to take the punishment of what I need to do. But at the same time, I think about my metabolic health. I, you know, all these things you've talked about, I think about training and running and lifting weights and dealing with the inner work myself. But fear for me is a two-sided sword. You know, fear, I can bend the knee to it, but I tend not to. Sometimes, yes, my knees do get weak, but then I step back. I reassess through self-awareness, self-compassion. Then I use some level of self-efficacy and I fight it. And fighting for me is all those adjectives I've shared with you. So fear for me is a two-sided sword. It is. It is. So hearing what you've just said, I may play in a different arena with you. And I'll just bring it up. I don't know that we have the time to finish it today. But I would unpack fear. I hear it's two-sided. It's powerful. It's potent. Nothing I say we are unpacking is because it's bad or wrong at all. I want you to be completely liberated. So it's my job to find all the teeny weeny hooks where there may be a little residual something that may hold you back in some way. So there's another thing I would bring up and I would explore and it's edgy, Jason. It's not common. This isn't something that most doctors would say. But I actually don't believe in fighting cancer because you've set up a win-lose situation. Someone's going to lose and someone's going to win. And I believe when we limit ourselves to that kind of thinking, where there's got to be a winner and there's got to be a loser, which is what happens in a fight, that we're limiting our ability to win. And so there's a way in which many people have been taught when we're sick, we need to fight it. When there's something over us, we got to fight it. And this particular mindset, although it has been helpful, may or may not be the highest expression of who you are at the at the freest, most grounded aspect of your being. It may not. So I would get really curious about that and start to explore the fight in you. And if that fight limits your ability to win sometimes, and it can be a motivator. I had a teacher many years ago. I'll quote him here. Christopher Hansard. And I saw him in London many, many, many years ago. And he said, Kristen Grace, any decision you make out of frustration, which was my expression of fight energy, is the wrong decision. If you are making a choice from the energy of fight rather than the energy of pure, unconditional love, there will be other consequences. And I was feeling that in my life, but I couldn't name it yet. But it's true. I had had a chronic illness and I wanted to fight it. And I had a lot of pain and suffering and I wanted to fight through it. And you know what? It helped me. I built capacity and I built resiliency. But at some point in my life, I had to shift that pattern that I discovered it was no longer about fighting against something else. Fighting against versus moving towards something more light, more love, more healthy is different than fighting against something. And so I would get really curious and have more conversations with you about the fight and open up the possibility that there may be another way to heal. There may be another way to experience a cure that may not involve the fight energy. How is this landing for you, Jason? It lands and a query pops into my head is that i'm wired towards fighting and moving forward through the storm i don't deny i don't try to move you know away from the storm i move into the eye of the storm and that's why i said you know i use self-awareness self-compassion then i use self-efficacy to do what i gotta do to push through it because with cancer it is a win-lose battle in my eyes, either you fall to the cancer and it eats you. Like I could, I could quit chemo. I could quit doing everything, but all of that, these are tools I've weaponized in a sense. Uh exercise of weaponized metabolism health and my mental health and such metabolism sorry for me again for me it's just terminology it's vernacular you can you can change the vernacular and yes for me fortitude tenacity resilience and and that that sense of strength these are things that fuel me and i think there are there are things that are worth fighting for right and i i just can't see sort of i'm trying to wrap my head around you know another way of looking at it and i'm open to hear about other ways of looking at it right because i am moving forward i do accept my my situations at logically in an emotional level and that drives my behavior to find constructive ways forward i don't delude myself i'm not filling my health head with positive affirmations i'm doing what i know helps i do show up to the you know immune therapy and such because i know that helps but all of that is part of my arsenal and i i'd love to understand a different way of looking at it but you know when a person has not been through what i've been through or I've never been a soldier, so I don't know what it is like to have PTSD per se from the theater of combat. And I will never try to understand that. But I'm trying to find out another approach, and I'm totally open to that. Yeah, great. Yeah, I'd love to talk more about it with you when we have more time. For now, I want to acknowledge what you've gotten from this way of being. You are incredibly resilient. You are strong. I see you as incredibly courageous. And you're using war terminology around cancer. And I think that's very interesting. I'm weaponizing my nutrition. I'm weaponizing all these different, you know, and exercise and I'm, you know, to battle cancer. And I'm just wondering, because we started the conversation with mentioning how our language, when repeated again and again, sinks in. And so if you're living in a war zone, if your life is based on a particular programmed habit of battle something, battling something, I don't see you as fully free. Now, it doesn't mean if you change that belief or that perspective, if you change that, you still go to immunotherapy, you still exercise, you still eat well, you still maybe have another conversation with me about great alternatives, and things change. The perspective shifts from living in a constant war zone to liberation. And that could be potent. there's a way in which the mindset can shift and the behaviors could still be happening, but it's with a different motivation. It's with, there's more here to unpack. There's more here around mindset and what's motivating your behaviors. Because what if you were fully free and you were motivated in a different way and you could do more? It's definitely something to think about. Right. There's some limitation that you've put on yourself because you've built a war zone. And what if that gets liberated? It blows the top off. There's no more ceiling. All possibilities now exist. And a cure is possible. It's just something to start allowing to percolate in your field. And I'd love to have another conversation with you to unwrap more of this with you because I've worked with many, I've never had cancer myself, but I do have autoimmune issues. And I've had a severe autoimmune disease, which is immune dysfunction, which is on the continuum of cancer. And it's rough. And I've been bedridden. And I'm guessing chemo has taken you out at times. And it's hard. And there's a way in which our thinking and our behaviors can open up new possibilities that we hadn't considered when we had other hooks or other limitations and in the beginning of of chronic illness for myself and and acute autoimmune disease i had the same fight. And we had to. In a way, that's how I learned in my childhood to succeed. So, Christine Grace, what was your shift? So you were combating whatever autoimmune issues you had. Yes. How did you what was the metaphor, the analogy, the picture, the sentence, the poetry you used to shift it from warfare to what? When my body was attacking itself, unconsciously, there was a part of me that I wasn't aware of that didn't necessarily want to be here. Because I had so much trauma locked in my nervous system, that was how my nervous system was like, it was so confused because of some things that had happened in my childhood. It was so confused and disoriented. It was attacking itself. And in cancer, I don't know all about the kind of cancer you have. I'd love to have another conversation if you're open, even off camera about it. There is a part of our immune system that didn't recognize it soon enough. If there's a mass or a certain kind of cancer, the immune system wasn't optimal. It wasn't actually fighting properly. It wasn't, it didn't discern properly. And something grew or something happened. And so I go back, for me, it's going to be a little different than you, but I went back to the more psycho-spiritual-emotional aspect of why my body manifested this particular disease state. And I had to get to know that part, even though sometimes to me it looked ugly and yucky and I felt shameful and I felt like a like a little one, like a yucky, yucky, gross feeling in my stomach. I had to make friends with her in a unique way. I had to welcome those parts of me that I hadn't explored that were yucky. And I had to learn to love them. And receive them as just little parts of me, not my identity. So I'm really careful when I talk about autoimmune or I talk about cancer. I never say mine, my cancer, my autoimmune. I don't want to identify with it that much. I know it's a part. I know it is a symptom. But it is not who I am. And for all symptoms, my migraines, my back pain. I always invite people, don't own that. We're going to work with it. I believe you can heal it. I believe you can cure it. But don't own an identity around a symptom. So that was a shift in consciousness for me. Because although I was fighting, there were other parts of me that felt like a victim to it. I felt like my body hijacked me. And you may or may not have that sense as well. Like this thing took over and I felt like I had no choice. But what I had to do was some really deep, deep shadow work and see how this didn't happen to me. It happened for me. And that this was a gift in strange wrapping. And at that time, I didn't know what the end result would be. And I was a single mom of a little child when I was very ill and I thought, I mean, like you the fight was, I'm going to fight to be a mom, I need to fight to raise my child no one else is going to do it so it served me until it didn't until I was ready to take it to the next level, and I could release the fight but releasing the fight to me wasn't complacency, it was a mindset change. It didn't mean I stopped taking care. It meant I did it with a whole different motivation and a whole different energy. The energy of war, the energy of fight, if we measure biochemically how that energy is on the human body, it's not positive. It doesn't bring positive tissue repair. It brings more inflammation. If we're in battle, you just talk to this veteran, he's out there battling. Do you think he's got all of these chemicals of love and down regulation and anti-inflammatory and strengthening his systems? Absolutely not. When we're in a fight, we're in survival and we're not thriving. So by shifting a mindset, I don't have just one sentence. It was a process. I didn't just wake up one day and say, oh, I'm going to be this way now. I had to go through my own unique layers, the systems, the strategies that were so unconscious for me. And the language I was using and the motivation, what was motivating all of my behaviors? And what was my deepest fear? What were my deepest fears? And how was I then unconsciously strategizing to avoid something? And the moment we are strategizing to avoid and push something away, we're not free. We're not free. And what I wish for myself and for you and for listeners is true liberation. how are we really free and freedom to me means thriving not being complacent. How's this landing, Jason? I know it's not a quick answer. No, no, no. It's of course, I mean, it's a simple question, but it requires a profound, deeper sense to answer. But I think there's a lot of food for thought for there because, yeah, you know, warfare can be attrition and attrition is exhausting. And I get that. I get that. And it's given me dimension, latitude and altitude to think about maybe the metaphors, the analogies, the poetry that I want to look at it. Maybe it's a guy thing. Obviously, you know, I come from a family of soldiers, especially on my British side, that go all the way from the Second World War, the First World War, the Boer Wars, all the way back. And so I know that can be part of my mentality. And it's not always healthy. But I think there's that's one thing I love about these podcasts because so, so organic. I mean, we completely went off the rails here and then we really, it's become a very in-depth, compelling and sobering conversation for me. And I'm pulling so much from this. And so what you have said in the scope of the time that we have, we can't do a deeper dive. Maybe we need to have a second conversation about what you do and such. But yes, what you have said, to say this more succinctly, it has sat with me and it is something to ponder and to think about and to maybe redefine my mindset about this. Because for two and a half years, I've beaten the odds, far beyond beating the odds, you know, where I'm standing, you know. But I can add more arrows to my quiver, per se, you know. I don't have to constantly use the battle arrows, you know. Right. So what I'm hearing, Jason, is that it's served you and I want to congratulate you. And you're speaking to something. You are a leader in the world as a man. And you are speaking to something that I think many men are going through and may not understand how to articulate it. You've come from an energy, a background, a family, of fighting, of war. And it's it's been fighting for something good fighting for truth fighting for life fighting for justice fighting for the underdog and this isn't bad this is fantastic and what i'm seeing in our world now is that that energy is ready to evolve to its next iteration where it's no longer about the fight. The fight is the brute force. And I think our men in the world have more to offer than just brute force. It doesn't mean stop training the muscle because sometimes you just need to clobber someone. And I want men in the world who know how to do that, but I don't want that to be their go-to, their fallback and their only way of being. I think right now you are at the precipice of what many men are, and that is a huge evolutionary developmental leap into something beyond the fight with the fist. And I want to hold a container of. Where that can be explored. And we can see what is your next evolutionary step in terms of being the best man you can be, the best husband, the best father, the best podcaster, the best author, the best athlete, the best human that you can be. And I think you're more than just a fighter. And I appreciate the fighter in you. I like the fighter in you. I don't want him to go away. I just want to see if there's more in you that's ready to come to the forefront and work with the situations, the stressors, and how your body is speaking to you in the next phase. The next the next level up does that make sense yeah completely i'm you know it's you know it's evolve adapt and move forward to the situation and i know my mindset is it's not fixed fixed and and crystallized it has to stay kinetic and dynamic it is an evolving situation and i have to evolve to that situation christine grace it's been a massive privilege to to pick your brain and to hear your experiences and to share the knowledge. You've given me a lot of food for thought. I really appreciate it. If our listeners wanted to reach out to you, what would be the best way they could get in touch with you? I have a website and I have contact information on the website. I have lots of blogs I've written and recipes and I offer different retreats and people could have a free conversation with me. I offer an optimal wellness consultation if someone's considering wanting to work with me. I like to interview people and have them interview me to see if it's a good fit. So my website is probably the best. And it's my full name, kristingracemcgary.com. I'll definitely leave all the show notes and sorry, all the links in the show notes, folks. So it's just one click away on your phone, your pad or your computer. Super. Is there any last words of wisdom you'd like to leave with our listeners before we call it a day. I guess what came to me would be to just take a moment and pause just in this moment. Take three deep breaths deep in the belly and just be present in this moment and allow whatever wants to arise in this moment of this just beingness to do so and see what that is. Get curious about what arises. Stay in that curiosity. Christine, Grace, thank you for such a brilliant conversation today. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having me, Jason. And I appreciate you opening up and sharing so much of yourself with me. I'm very grateful. Thing that stuck with me the most from what Christine Grace just said is that we have to stop fighting for our health. We've been conditioned to think that everything is a war. War on cancer, war on stress, war on poverty. But Christine's point is that the war mindset is chemically toxic. If you're always in fight, your body never gets the signal that it's safe enough to actually repair itself. And in my own personal sojourn right now, that's something I might need to consider with more depth. So when you switch your motivation from I hate this problem and I need to beat it to maybe I value myself enough to move toward health, well your internal chemistry actually changes. It's the difference between running on adrenaline and running on actual sustainable energy. So if you're feeling stuck right now, take a second to look at where you're applying brute force in your life. Try dropping the combat stance for a minute and just be curious about what's actually happening underneath. It's a lot harder than just pushing through, but it's the only way to get to the other side. Kristen Grace, thanks for being so open about your own sojourn and for giving us a different way to look at our own. If this gave you something to think about, send it to someone who's currently in the middle of a tough season. And if you haven't yet, hit that subscribe button so you don't miss these conversations. And if you find yourself on LinkedIn, well, you can subscribe to It's Inside Job newsletter, where I share my thoughts and muses on the different episodes I've had with a number of high caliber guests. So maybe I'll see you there. And until next time, keep well, keep strong, and we'll speak soon.

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Jason Birkevold Liem

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